More Musings on Design Thinking

Warren Berger from the Harvard Business Review blogs posts a really good article:

http://blogs.hbr.org/2010/07/the-four-phases-of-design-thin/

He contrasts the lessons which we could learn from designers and I try to extrapolate that thinking into Business Analysis. Because, I feel, we as Business Analysts are facilitators for such discussions within our projects and programs.

The four lessons are:

1. Question
2. Care
3. Connect
4. Commit

These are great and I strongly recommend reading the post as a starting point to pursue in the direction of design thinking. Coming from Agile world of software development, we are all involved in product development day in and day out.

One key take away from the design thinking is shift focus from the product to creating new experiences and beyond to new organizational structures and environment. One of the key attributes of design thinking is ‘collaboration’. Hence, in our product development construct, the design thinking should be encouraged by Business Analysts. They should not only confirm the requirements from the end-users but also by all the relevant stakeholders committed in the initiative to change.

And while we do that the first two points should be embraced in its entirety. “Question and Care” I have tried in current assignment. Challenging aspirations. Questioning beliefs and ways of working for last 10 years. I realized in the process that we were trying to address a non-existent problem by way of product development. For some of the end-users the answer to all the pain-points is not a new product development, however, a simple process change! 

The care element is not new but is typically stated as "Trusted Advisor" for Business Analysts and project management consultants. Either way, I like that the empathy element is very important. It tells us that as Business Analysts, we should not just understand the issue but to empathize with the current pain points, what the customer is not receiving, or the history of events that led up to this point. Considering our closeness to users, we are well equipped for this job. We should be the front line for customer care. Empathy based requirements gathering should be core. Having requirements gathering has many other aspects, but the point is, this can be an important factor in consideration.

Connect is critical as well. If you delver a product that is unusable or is not as desired your customer will not use or will not get the right level of adoption you are looking for. As Business Analyst; we need to sniff these issues out. If product is unusable, we should present the analysis to stakeholders for taking a decision on the future course. Again think from user angle (Empathy). Commit equals credibility. This is all about agile delivery of frequent deliveries for rapid feedback. This is where Agile processes like Scrum fit well.

On a personal level, I feel what we can achieve using this way of thinking is phenomenal. The debate goes further into the differences between finance oriented thinking, where shareholder value is most important, and design oriented thinking is as the article suggests more people, solution, emotion oriented thinking. And as always, is there a middle ground?

Experience of Conducting Analysis workshop using Design Thinking

Last month, I was tasked to conduct a workshop for a trading operations team for an Energy company. The task was to come up with various scenarios for improving the efficiency of operations leveraging technologies. I decided to explore design thinking as a way to conduct the workshop.

If you want to know more about, design thinking, please check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_thinking

For ideal workshop in design thinking, it is recommended that define and research phases of the process should be thoroughly conducted in advance of workshop day. The workshop should be focused solely on presenting the findings of define/research & ideation.

To conduct the define phase I used the following:

1.        Interview with operations team (identified team)
2.        Researched the documentation
3.        Shadowed employees who are identified as product ambassadors

The output of this phase was a three point problem statement. I made initial validation of this problem with the team.

The research phase was based on past experience and past data. I built various scenarios in the form of user journeys on how the operations take place. The different user journeys and scenarios presented with situations on where efficiency improvements can be spotted.

Based on these journeys, I elaborated on what are the user motivations and needs. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_journey

This was followed by an ideation phase. After the ideation, we finalized on top three things to focus for innovation in improving efficiencies. We concluded to transactionalize document storage and management.

This was later put into prototype phase for quick user feedback and execution of the idea. Throughout the process, ensured the business change aspect for better adoption of the idea.

My strong recommendation to use this design thinking for workshops. This would be especially useful to cut through some of the stereotype solution formations. 

A software product start up

Last week I went to product enclave by NASSCOM and met some amazing people. Almost all of them oozing energy to discuss the ideas they have for their respective products. It got me into thinking, how can they be sure, that this product is going to succeed. In my interactions where I asked pointed questions, I found, some had the answers. Well others also had the answers :), but I was not really convinced. It got into searching for a framework to determine market size of the product. The question is also pertinent in the light of many indian IT firms trying to get into the space of non-linear growth by investing heavily in products, platforms and solutions. I am sure, everyone would be having a framework, I thought assimilating this information from various sources. Please comment, will refine based on our discussions.

To my mind, this is a case for Five Cs.

Here are some points adjusted for the unique dynamics of the start-up environment.

 

Character

How would you evaluate the sincerity, honesty, and integrity of the owner of the business? Do others that they deal with (employees, suppliers, customers) value them as partners or are there character issues?

Are there any legal actions pending against the business?

Does the mission of the start-up make sense? Is their business concept sound?

What is the timeline/progress of development, coding, testing, and production as originally conceived in the business plan? Does it make sense?

What is the previous track record of each of the principals of the startup?

Capacity

What is the plan for producing the product when the code is ready? Is outsourcing stamping, packaging, and shipping an option?

Capital

What is the makeup of the initial seed capital to start the business? Personal assets, small business loan, venture capital funds?

What is the debt structure like if it exists? Interest rates, due dates, rollover ability, secured assets, etc.?

(more of this case on next page)

Collateral

Have any patents been applied for? What is their status?

What has been done to protect the intellectual capital/property associated with the software design?

Conditions

Describe the market space the business occupies. 

Why did the business come into inception?

What defines dominance in this market? Cost? Economies of scale? Speed to market? Relationships with customers? Where does this business fall against the aforementioned metrics?

Is the market for this type of product saturated? Is there a particular unfulfilled segment where this product fits or will it be competing against other already established products?

What is the advertising and promotional activity planned for this product? 

Deciding on technology

At the coffee table today, we were discussing how should a company decide to invest in a new technology. How it should align with business strategy of a company and here it is a study framework to decide the same.

So for the purpose of this blog, let us assume that a bank is coming to you for consulting engagement to decide on embarking on a technology change. The change will cost the bank close to $ 50 Million. Now that is a lot of money, bank is asking us, should we do this or not?

Before we start creating hypothesis about whether this is a good idea or not, we have to understand the reason for this technology change. Is it the case that, this will help in gaining more market share by increasing customer base? or is it just a technology change due to support termination of the current technology? Nail down the reason and build this in the part of the hypothesis.

Ultimately, this exercise should lead to a basic NPV analysis. For that we require cash flows. The next question is how to reasonably determine cash flows. The answer would be to investigate the situation in the form of 3 Cs customers, competition, and company. So if the hypothesis is not to go ahead with the technology, factor in the the possibilities whether the customer base will be shrinking or not, that the competitors for the smaller number of banks were huge and low, low cost providers, and that the companies cost structure and particular strengths would keep them from being competitive with larger players no matter how much they invested in technology.

This is not a an elaborate framework, just a guiding tool for the study!

Thoughts?

Why it is not what you hear & see and more? A tale of an organization

Off late, we have been hearing a lot about one of the best companies not doing so good in the recent quarterly performance. Although numbers are always right, but there is more than what meets the eye. I don’t know why but having associated with “her” for more than 6 years, I am saddened when people spit comments based on reading few articles or news flash. I feel it is my moral responsibility to clean up a few facts and present the positive picture which is just and plain based on facts!

So the way I approach this is by thrashing a few arguments upfront and I will try to remove my emotions and will be as objective as possible.

The number one point is about guidance. For people who would not be familiar with it, it is a forward looking statement about the pipeline of work which is supposed to come. Now this is a company which is based on the principle of stating upfront what they are going to achieve in next 3 months to one year. This is a regular practice for 20 years now. Also, this is the company which goes first to state upfront what they feel is there state of business. It takes balls and nerves of steel to predict and that too predict first. The guidance may be low, but at the end of the day it is guidance and the company has a reputation of beating it year after year barring few instances in recent past. Does it mean, it has lost its sheen? Well, few quarters are not enough to pass judgment in business. Anyone who is an entrepreneur will know this; the labor and changes take time to sink in.

So what all changes are expected?

Barney Stinson will say “India’s performance in outsourcing business is legend..wait for it dary”. So what was getting outsourced: Tech support, voice calls, programming and what not? Things are being delivered at much lower costs and efficiently. I know, this will raise a few eyebrows on about efficiency, but the argument will be this business is on for more than 30 years and business houses are finding it efficient. Now there is a simple rule of economics, the marginal utility. Utility on Y axis being programming and voice and other mundane outsourced stuff and Time on X axis. Over time, the utility will be stagnant. That is precisely what is being observed. The utility of writing code is not growing exponentially as it was happening few years back.

Having said that what is the best way for the company to grow? The idea should be to grow in areas where there is more utility in terms of outsourcing. In IT terms it is calling consulting. Why consulting and not anything else? Because it has the ability to strike where the business needs are: Solving business problems. Now why the same growth can be predicted for this?

When you are running a business, you have two kitties. One which you will spend on your mundane stuff. Stuff without which you will not be able to survive. You cannot survive if your application is not being maintained. You cannot survive without your call center support. So this kitty is the money for your usual needs. Then there is another kitty which is termed as “futuristic”. This is something which you will use for creating the future. Setting the future direction and you will hire consultants to make decisions for you. Now in depressing times like today, you will forget you have a futuristic kitty and you will focus on “Mundane” stuff squeezing every penny to get your work.

The futuristic kitty is something which is discretionary and you can’t get a full forward looking view in tough times. It is hazy and hence unpredictable. Having said that why leave something which is predicable to something so unpredictable. Below table gives the answer. All numbers are in the scale of 1 to 10. 10 being the largest.

Now there can be bias and inherent flaw in assigning values to this numbers, but this gives a drift of thinking. Strategically speaking, the payoff matrix is tilted in the favor of choosing the unpredictable business. It is an altogether different question on which companies can capitalize on this. But I want to make a statement that to my mind; this is the right direction and right strategy.

Moving on,

There were many questions raised around dividends and its distribution. For the sake of everyone, anyone who thinks that shareholders have made money should get the facts straight. Assuming you have invested 1000 rupees in 2010 in that share, you would have made nothing or probably would have lost a few rupees. In what universe shareholders are getting benefitted? It is futile to even argue that shareholders are the biggest winners. They have not won, but they are still invested as they believe in the direction in which this business is going. And I resonate that feeling.

Last thing is handling employees. Well it has a history of not firing anyone based on poor market conditions. There can be instances of unpleasant experiences. But seriously guys: are you telling me other companies outside are all white & fair in dealing with people. Atleast this organization has a platform that someone can walk in to big boss’s cabin & talk. Can question the seniors openly in the form of blogs, posts & question them on their action.

In all, I feel, it is like a spa treatment. You know after the treatment it is going to be relaxed. But you make faces & sometimes cry when you are pressed at different places in your body!

So give this baby one chance!! :)

What can we learn from Rajni?

(With liberal references from Search god: google!!)

Having been party to plethora of SMS and jokes about Rajni’s supernatural abilities made me wonder what is this all about? How can a simple actor like Rajnikanth can pull out something so great and so extraordinary. And the answer that comes to my mind is powerful branding. May be it is unintentional. Who knows!! 

I do the same thing everywhere - Consistency  

The crux is living the brand. Every action in his movies (although I cannot boast to have seen a lot of his on screen gyrations but I believe he would have done them in all) depicts what Rajni as a brand is.

Your brand is built and conveyed, with every action you take, with every product/service you offer, with every piece of communication you send, and with every contact you make with your customers.

Successful but very well connected on the ground

I was watching a few interviews of the legendary actor and found the guy humble, simple and well connected to the people on the ground.

Its people like you and me who have built stories about him although in lighter vein, these things demonstrate a sort of consistency in Rajni’s action. Consistency in delivery and performing out of world miracles on screen.

Prof Thiru always says “in the long run, companies which have stories to tell will survive”

Customers build brands piecemeal. They build a story about you based upon their experience. Your customer owns your brand - you do not. Your job is to behave as consistently as possible.

Single minded dedication to do the unthinkable – Character fixation!

The other day, I was watching Siva and watching some trailers of Robot. The guy is consistently doing things which normally is: unthinkable.

Attribution theory is at work here:  This theory says that people ascribe characters to the people they meet based on a very few clues around which they spin elaborate stories. So from a gesture, or a turn of phrase, or an intonation of voice, they quickly come to a conclusion as to the sort of person they are dealing with (often within 20 seconds of meeting the person, in fact). These judgements are made not only of people, but also of animals, and even of inanimate objects (what human characteristics do you ascribe to your laptop when it crashes?).

Brands, which function as fictional people, are also ascribed human characteristics. (God in our case of Rajnikanth!!)

In conclusion, brands can therefore be analysed along two key dimensions based on our understanding of Rajni’s actions:

• The level of intimacy they have with their customers (viewers in our case)
• Their level of stature in the world (how the world sees him)

And what is going to take us there?

• The central organising thought of the brand
• The personality of the brand
• The values the brand embodies
• The tastes/dress of the brand, including how it speaks
• The emotional benefits the brand satisfies
• The hard benefits the brand delivers

Survey Findings - Usage of Enterprise 2.0

As promised, these are the survey results regarding usage of Enterprise 2.0. This is our analysis.

We asked questions to the employees of different organizations to understand whether they understand the reason for the recent flourishing of Enterprise 2.0 activities.

•  Large organizations which promote the usage of internal tools which are created on the lines of external social media tools don’t know the motive behind the organization’s investment in these tools. Hence, one point which comes out of this analysis is that communication program on the objectives has to be strengthened.
• Again, in case of IT services organization which has great needs for knowledge management and content management have maximum number of employees who are not in sync with the organization’s objective behind the implementation of Enterprise 2.0.
• Smaller companies seem to be adopted well and due to smaller size, the objectives are spread to the employees and the expectations from the new software is understood by the users and hence better viability of using these Enterprise 2.0 tools.
• In a product based company, there is greater acceptability. This is demonstrated by the fact that the employees use these tools on almost day to day basis and find the usage helpful in terms of increasingtheir professional knowledge. 
• Most of the users prefer the usage of external tools rather than the internal tools which are developed in-house which are more or less the replica of the functionality of the external tools.

Calculate RoI or LoI? - Enterprise 2.0

Thanks to everyone who took time out to fill up the responses of our survey on Enterprise. In my subsequent posts, I will give short glimpse of the project which we had done. Can’t post the document in its entirety due to confidential details!!

Any discussion on Enterprise 2.0 eventually leads to discussion on what is the return on investment in Enterprise .0 and here are some of the findings.

Calculating ROI for Enterprise 2.0 investment is largely difficult due to the inherent nature of benefits which it displays. Results of collaboration between employees or customers which these technologies are usually seen over a longer period of time and might also go unnoticed. The increased revenue and reduction in costs in marketing and sales costs are also one of the results of employing Enterprise 2.0. We have mentioned usage of Microblogging as a marketing agent above but calculating the return from this infrastructure or resource is difficult.

Collaboration leads to creation of massive database of knowledge and training material. Once an organization has the required platform, the benefits which an employee or customer gain are usually not monitored or monetized. A readily available BoK might reduce the learning curve for an employee but it is hard to put it in financial terms.

There are ways however to try and calculate some returns if an organization finds innovative ways of putting new ideas to use which result out of collaboration. In a research done by Datamonitor, they comment that ROI can be calculated for large scale deployments of Enterprise 2.0 through the principle of Metcalfe’s Law. Basically it boils down to the number of users in the system and due to the communication channels which result.

It is largely acknowledged that Enterprise 2.0 results in lowering costs of various business processes like –

• Enterprise Wikis and other collaboration tools benefit the training within an organization

• Collaboration leads to Project management simplification by reducing formal structure, meetings etc.

• Reduced costs in Sales and Marketing – already discussed above.

What one could do is measure the benefits of real time data acquisition of heterogeneous data sources, structured data capture, and the value of real time manipulation of security domains for applications. Blogs, Wikis, and Forums are all text (String) based idioms. They are hard to search for pertinent information and not easy categorized due to their weak types. Information captured and difficult to query might as well not exist it's like having money in your couch - it's there but most likely it's not worth the search. Check out the Walmart use case of technology and translate that into intranets, extranets, and internet on stationary and mobile devices and their is a good chance people will take notice. Wall Street is a prime example of he who sees data first wins.

In conclusion, even if you can't quantify ROI one can calculate LOI - Loss on Investment. Fear of loss sometimes motivates better than desire!!

Once again a case for Solar Powered Air Conditioner

--------------- Read this after games which RIL plays for logical flow of thought. --------------------------

Many people participated in the research we conducted some 3 months back on FB/Twitter/Orkut and Linkedin. The survey results were astonishing and overwhelming. At the cost of being repetitive, our group would like to thank everyone for being part of this project. I have been thinking on this idea more and more that why we are not using solar powered AC. Are they really expensive? Or the marketing department in these companies is dud. Well that might be an exaggeration, but can marketing techniques be used to push this product. I believe it can. Of course, there are problems, but in the following paragraphs I would like to make you believe, that it is not all that difficult.

One important question:

 Respondents of the survey were asked the reason for not installing Solar power based product.

The top three reasons for not installing based on the survey are:
- Initial set up cost is too high.
- Most of the comments in others indicate that the product is not at all popular and they don’t know how to use it.
- They don’t know where to buy.

These findings point to one point in bold:

Value articulation of Solar based product is not up to the mark.

The message that should go out from all the companies which are involved in selling the solar based products is summarized:

Based on these major customer pain points, the problem can be summed and looked upon with the help of this 2X2 matrix.

 

With low credibility and low visibility of this product, we are at the quadrant which is “unknown”. The Strategy to come out of this should be two step:


1. Increase the credibility (most important step) and

2. Increase the visibility.

Focus on value rather than cost:

I won't go into the detail of the case for solar power in this post, but will highlight one general point that I feel is very important. This concerns the importance of focusing on value rather than cost.

There is, for example, an active debate in the UK at present about whether nuclear is cheaper than CCGT (= combined cycle gas turbine I think!) electric power. People will typically address this issue by preparing charts that show the cost of a unit of electricity produced either way. They sometimes also show a point on the chart for solar power and this tends to look pretty unfavourable (i.e. solar power is shown as being high cost). Analysis such as this may seem very logical but it misses an important fact. This is the fact that for a commercial company the objective function is to maximise value not minimise costs. Value comes from cash flow which in turn comes from sales revenue less costs. So a focus just on cost means that sales revenue impacts are missed out.

The need to focus on value is not just an issue for policy makers considering solar power. For example:

• when considering cost reduction exercises my view is that targets should be set in terms of the value benefit from a cost reduction rather than simply the headline saving in the year in question. This would pick up factors such as the sustainability of the reduction and any impact on sales.

• when considering working capital the aim should not be simply to minimise it. It should be to ensure that working capital decisions maximise value. Hence, some working capital increases may well be good. 

Redefining “Being Rich” – Game which RIL is playing

Things change with time:  not long ago the rich were supposed to be fat and well fed!!
Now the rich are slim and trim.

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The rich had carpets on the floor.

Now the rich have wooden floors and poor have carpets. (In US at least)
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We will see a change in trend. You would be rich if you have your own vegetable garden and work from home.

While the poor will commute to work and shop in stores!!
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It was fashionable to eat the most exotic fruits and vegetables. Now it is fashionable to eat local grown “organic” vegetables..
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So the demand curve will not shoot up while resources drop the demand will shift to a new medium.
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As the Saudi minister said. “We did not move out of stone age because we ran out of stones!!”

The oil producing nations are living in fear that if and when the demand for petroleum drops they will be finished. 80% of all fuel used is for transportation so, a global move to efficient mass rapid transportation will sound the death knell for Auto companies and refineries and oil producing nations.

Go to you tube and search: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=channel
Most important video you`ll ever see

Globally Growth is going to fail, as we do not have the resources to sustain it..

What is Reliance doing now? Connections to what I said above.

1. Reliance is generating a lot of Cash which it does not have a place to invest.
2. Oil business in itself is in a decline.. Global warming and peak oil both are negatives.
3. These new frontiers (power/telecom) are going to be the future of Reliance.

Telecom and Power are cash guzzlers and for the next 5-10 years all cash flows from Reliance industries can flow into these sectors..

It is a calculated bet, why else would you see Reliance sell the equity it was holding in its reserves?? A few months back?

Question is when "Peak oil" is made public. Will the Govt of US or India for that matter allow Reliance/Exxon to use the gas as Reliance/Exxon would like to use??

I dont think so!!

That is one reason Reliance was going to buy the chemical company because petroleum products can be used more efficiently in manufacturing speciality chemicals, fertilisers than as automotive fuels.

Most likely when the oil crisis hits the world we will see::

- Ban on private transportation.
- Ban on private use of petroleum products.

When there was a shortage of rice, we banned rice export which is renewable asset as we can grow it.
Unfortunately oil is a non renewable asset.

ü  Do not know much about Crude pricing.

ü  Only thing that I am certain about is the peak oil theory and it is just round the corner. (maybe 5-10 years down the line).

We must understand that wealth of an individual (and of nations) is determined by the amount of energy used/available at his/her disposal. This is true even today

A Poor farmer has a cycle and a pair of bulls for farming. While a well off farmer will have a tractor and a motorcycle/vehicle at his disposal.(more energy.. consumption)

Even in case of an urban household a more well off household will have washing machine, dryer,  airconditioner, water filter, microwave, car, SUV and the total consumption of energy per person is higher.

The same no of people in not so well off household will have a much lower energy consumption pattern per person.

In fact every Rupee we earn is nothing but a currency to purchase/trade energy. We pay and receive energy in return.

Long term Global growth is suspect.. even Indian growth is suspect!!!

-  When there is no growth then demand for consumables will drop and so will the interest rates fall.

-  You will see a fall in all energy consuming goods  and see an increase in Video games..TV..3D.. and other not so energy intensive forms of entertainment.

-  Food.. medicine.. shelter.. demand will exist but not increase..

- Electrical grid/gas pipelines will gain prominence as the only efficient way to transport energy.

- Wireless networks.. Internet.. will also benefit from drop in movement of goods and personnel..So the moves made by Reliance makes much sense strategically!

SRK and Pepsodent

In this new ad SRK dons the hat of a father who warns his children if they don’t brush, their teeth will turn from white to black. And in the process the father tries to convince the son to brush only for two minutes to see the results!! "Germ Free in 2 mins – Peposodent Gemi-check". Mind you this is a 35 seconds ad and at least 5 seconds would be wasted (oops I meant consumed) in this punch line!!

Given this background, let’s see how the toothpaste market is currently being played out in India. Colgate Palmolive leads the tally with over 50% market share. HUL with the combined artillery of close up (the famous pass aao jingle) and pepsodent is distant 2^nd with 22%. Now the supposedly higher management of HUL believes the new ad which they have created will connect to children! I don’t understand how. The reason given is also very lame. “SRK is seen spending time with children”. This is surely a cover-up tactic. 

The main reason is that everyone these days believes what Celina Jaitely once said - sex and SRK sells. For god’s sake the man gets ready for the show for anything - for money. SRK was selling HUL’s lux sometime back for ladies. (Although, in hindsight, I do believe that this tactic would go really well with middle class fan following of SRK).

In a desperate effort to bridge the gap between the two (HUL and Colgate), HUL has gone ahead and spent crores of rupees in rural marketing. But even money could not buy what they want. 

Only thing that clicked for HUL was the fantabulous ad of “dishum dishum” which saw the market share of pepsodent increase from 10 to 13% in flat 6/8 months. The slogan cuts through and captures the essence of why toothpaste is used. To kill germs and the message was very well received by the Indian bourgeoisies. But everything that has a beginning comes and end. The ad was replaced by a non-sense called “bache jhooth nahin bolte”. The kind of ad which requires an IQ of over 170 to decipher the message that the brand was trying to deliver. And the typical higher management reply follows that “we are not changing our brand positioning, we are only changing the way of its execution.”

So what could have been done? Focus on rural areas. Close – up can do well in cities given the power of “pass aao” jingle.

• -          Since childhood, I have been fascinated by man in uniform. I would prefer strong army men who would probably be brushing his teeth in his vests and the child looking at this honest and patriotic father in admiration, picks up the brush himself and ends with the “dishum dishum” message. Well, not exactly the same setup but I am just giving a hint of how it can be done!! 

Why I feel this way?

• -          Whatever be SRK’s twitter following, rural India unlike the urban populace is smart and is not going to spend money just because SRK is selling it for 35 secs?
• -          Also, showing someone in urban 2 bedroom sized bathroom with 116 bathroom fitting is not going to appeal the psyche of the aam admi.
• -          The ad will be cheaper without SRK. The money saved can be used in strengthening the rural distribution channels and strengthening the core message of using toothpaste.

If   If HUL’s strategy is increasing the marketing share, and narrowing down the gap, there is no way apart from going rural and they can do narrow down the gap. Of course buying out other small players is always a option. But I would not, given the potential of jeopardizing the famous HUL brand.